But what are your thoughts on yaoi?

[nigeltde]

ohinternets has made an interesting, eloquent and comprehensive post about the epic failure of OTW (aka otw_news, aka The Organisation for Transformative Works), which I almost entirely disagree with. I vomited a tl;dr into the comments box and then thought better, and it has finally spurred me into actually posting my thoughts on the OTW. So here is what I think about some of the more common criticisms (as voiced by ohinternets) of the OTW, which I have followed keenly since its inception in astolat's journal.


1. ... At least they are honest right away that their aim is to legitimize a social entity that has never expressed a collective interest in being legitimized.... For many of us, part of the appeal of participating in fandom is that it's by definition a transgressive, illegitimate and sometimes even subversive subculture. We all operate outside the normative realm of acceptable media consumption.... So I don't want to be a part of a fandom that is "legitimate," whatever that even means.
This interpretation of OTW's aims cropped up a few times in the comments on Joe Scalzi's blog. I think the problem here lies in the ambiguity of "legitimate". In the same way, I think, that ohinternets gets leery when people go on about teh feminisms of fandom, I am less inclined to celebrate fandom as inherently transgressive or subversive, etc, etc, unless, I suppose, we're talking about industry and capitalism. And you know, I think there's a bunch of fic/art/practice whatever that isn't socially acceptable/legitimate/"Hey Aunt Mabel/my boss, check this out" and will never and should never be. But as a creative activity? I think that reworking the stories that circulate in society is an age-old and legitimate and good practice that ought to be stood up for when the copyright lawyers and hysterical authors come a-knocking.

2. The archive project is too technically ambitious, especially for a non-profit. (paraphrased)
I don't have the right technical expertise to assess this. But obviously they think it's possible and I love the idea of such an archive, so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and a hand if they need it. Potential failure is better than certain failure, and failure is certain if everyone gives up immediately.

3. ... What I have a problem with is this urgent desire for homogenous centralization.... All the BNFs scramble to plant their flags as early as possible so they can preserve their own BNF interests and it is always this incredibly transparent.
Because I see the archive as supplementing, rather than replacing, other archives/fan spaces, I don't see this homogenous centralisation. That would be impossible, at any rate; like herding cats. This is just a group of people banding together and making a giant scratching post for all cats to use at their own discretion. And I guess I just have a bit more faith with respect to the BNFs -- at any rate I believe them when they say it's intended to last past any one fan's involvement.

4. ... This is built in the exact opposite way that fandom works: they are building it and hoping that people eventually, in the long run, realize they need it.
I agree with queenzulu's response to this: that the archive in particular is a response to a specific lack (highlighted by the FanLib debacle). As for the journal, that's for their own pleasure. As for the legal defense fund, that's a response to the increasingly and unstoppably public nature of online fandom (and the increasing possessiveness of media corporations).

5. It's proliferating already-widespread fandom ennui.
I don't really follow this argument, but I also don't really feel the ennui. Personally, I am quite excited about OTW. I think that, if it comes about, the archive will provide stability without being stultifying. People can put whatever they want in there. Fic fashions change. If the OTW is too srs bizness, well, I don't know how else something of this scale could be organised. Anyway, astolat at the very least always makes things sound fun (to computer geek me).

6. It is nerdy, aka academic, not geeky, and therefore exclusive.
I accept their reasoning behind the wanky name, but I hate that people feel so excluded by the rest of the language they use and I imagine that by the time they get something more accessible set up it'll probably be too late. I don't feel excluded but people have said many times that they do, and I think they should address that in a way that doesn't involve repeatedly saying no, you are included.

7. So my friends list is about 30% -40% male, yet I'm supposed to value my identity as part of a "predominantly female space?"
By-the-by, my flist is 99% female; but anyway, I think hector_rashbaum has made some really persuasive arguments about the specific phrasing of that "value" and I wish they would listen more. Having said that I do think that the gendered nature of media fandom in the last forty years is significant and a dominant characteristic and ought to be mentioned if they are making a "we like fandom because" list.

8. It disregards all other fannish endeavors that came before it.
The biggest problem I have with OTW is that it ignores the excellent fan_history wiki. Why reinvent the wheel? It's insulting to the people who put so much effort into the existing wiki. I think they should support it instead of usurping its contributor base. However, I think it's different for archives. Time and time again major multifandom archives have spat in their users' faces, and I for one can't afford my own website. I would really value an archive with the features they're planning.

9. LJ =/= fanfic =/= fandom
From what I understand, vids and art have been part of the process from the beginning, which is part of why it's such srz bizness (it makes it a lot harder). And if they don't have a mechanism for RPG, or some other fan practice, why not suggest it? I agree they should watch their language so as not to appear exclusive to fic.

10. Who are these people?
Their bios on the website strike an awkward but necessary balance, for my money, between proving to the IRS that they exist, and reassuring fans that they are involved in fandom. In otw_news they post under their fannish names, and I understand their wish to not directly connect their real-life name and their fannish identity.



In all honesty, the only issue raised in this whole series of discussions that has really taken me aback was was raised in Scalzi's blog in response to the (inaccurate) idea that the legal team will be active in pursuing cases. An Eric says in several places:
I think fanfic is artistically legitimate but may not be legally legitimate–and I’d like to see that brought into accord.... eventually someone will take you to court because they can or because they don’t like you. And if you lose, your case is going to make bad law. And that bad law may end up being used against other creative people....

(1) try to avoid going to court–seriously, our legal system is only marginally better than throwing witches in the pond when it comes to getting to the bottom of things; and (2) if you can’t avoid court, be the best defendant you can be. Be able to show your lawyer (so he can show a judge or jury) that you did everything you could to follow what law was in place and to be a sympathetic character. Be a good client, in other words. Don’t sit there and tell your lawyer you didn’t hurt anyone or you were waiting for the law to become settled or you were entitled or that it’s not fair you’re being sued when those people over there aren’t.

My only response to that is to say that this problem has always existed, and I don't believe fandom as a whole ought to (and could) completely warp their legitimate practice to something that complies with the letter of the law for fear of being taken to court. However, the idea of setting a bad precedent deeply worries me; and I hope that the OTW's legal defence fund and expertise and connection with the EFF etc will help when (not if) someone sues the creator of worst possible and most culturally unacceptable example of fanwork they can find. So in that respect, the OTW is a good thing; the mitigating factor being that corporations may view it as a direct threat or challenge.

In conclusion: ideas = awesome, execution a little less so. So, you know, let's work on it, give feedback, get involved, and help make the OTW what we think it ought to be!

Comments

[jessikast]

I read the same ohinternets post, and had much the same reaction to it as you, so yay you with the clear and concise writing and ideas!!

[nigeltde]

yay for the hive mind!

[accio-arse.livejournal.com]

Fandom doesn't like being organised very much, huh? And they hate change.

I want it to go well. I suspect if OTW takes off, it'll be a different story. People will want to be involved then.

As for fandom dying out or geting boring, pfffft.

[nigeltde]

Where Howard and Vince are, boredom is not.

[accio-arse.livejournal.com]

Yes. Did you see Series Three yet? (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bewsh) Yay!

[nigeltde]

I love it! The crack fox scared the shit out of me!

[accio-arse.livejournal.com]

Oh god yes. Just as the Crack Fox was about to kill that tramp with his needle fingers - I was genuinely terrified. I think my favourite episode might have been 'Journey to the Centre of the Punk' - with the tiny little submarine and all the talking blood cells and everything. It was a real adventure.

I have loads and loads of Mighty Boosh icons over at my IJ (http://accio-arse.insanejournal.com/tag/icon+post) if you're at all interested.

And since you've seen Series three, I can break out my 'Party' icon. Kissy fun!

[nigeltde]

Awesome! Thanks! I was trying to make a Vince-as-receptionist icon the other night but it just wasn't working. I grabbed a crack fox. Ah'm gonna hurt you real bad... - AHHHH!

I loved the punk episode too! Especially the red and white blood cells. THey were so adorably thick.

[(Anonymous)]

"So, you know, let's work on it, give feedback, get involved, and help make the OTW what we think it ought to be!"

Well, you know;

1. I'm not on Livejournal. Therefore, as far as I can see, there is *no way* for me to (a) work on it (b) give feedback that anyone involved will pay attention to (c) get involved.

2. I think that if the OTW is purporting to represent fandom, the first thing it ought to be is an organisation that *doesn't* exclude all fans not on livejournal.

3. See 1.

It's a vicious circle, and it makes cheery optimistic comments about OTW just really damned annoying. It's a livejournal project: the outreach committee don't seem to want to "outreach" to anywhere else.

I'm here via Ohinternets post which I found via FanHistory which I was using to check dates when I was composing the feministsf wiki entry on OTW... isn't research wonderful?

Yonmei

[nigeltde]

Hey Yonmei, thanks for commenting. Sorry for the delay in my response, I've only just returned from an internet-less holiday.

I can see what you mean by the vicious circle thing and I think it's happened a couple of times, unfortunately. "I feel excluded!" "But you're not!" "But I am" "But I'm telling you you're not!" "But I'm telling you I am!" That sucks and is unproductive and I hope I'm not about to embark upon a similar exercise.

I can also see that it would be easier to follow the OTW -- and especially to follow particular discussions -- if you were on livejournal, but as far as I can tell, there's no barrier for non-lj fan involvement. Otw_news, including the volunteer request posts, is not locked to anonymous commenting, and there are clones on other journalling sites. And there's a del.icio.us account, and a Yahoo group, and a Twitter thing, and RSS and Atom feeds. And I think the recent IRC chats have suffered from a lack of attendees, so I'm sure you or other non-lj fans would be welcome in such a forum.

Certainly, though, absence of a barrier =/= encouraging involvement. What kind of outreach do you think would be effective? Ads on sites like AMV.com and TWoP, so more non-lj fans know of its existence? I think the circle works the other way, too: the more non-lj fans get involved, the more open and accessible and welcoming and representative the organisation becomes, and more non-lj fans get involved.

Cheers,

Jessie